We were really not impressed with the Winnebago Intent. The interior is cheap and spartan. It has no LP on the fridge, only electric. It does not have solar panels to help with keeping the battery charged. It does not have a gravity fill for the water tank. Most of the niceties in our '94 brave are missing. Really it is the most basic rig you could imagine. But we love the length of 26'10" so decided to test drive.
The turning radius was excellent. It easily fit in one parking spot with plenty of room behind if you choose the right one. Probably need to take 2 to get back out again. It seemed stable on the expressway.
But it was the most rattly squeaky rig we have ever test driving. It was so noisy that we could barely talk to each other when accelerating on the expressway. The screen next to the passenger window was so ill fitting not only did it rattle but it would never be sealed against mosquitoes. It barely could accelerate empty. It has 2252 lb ccc. From which you would subtract 449 for a full tank of water. So Ok. Not great but not bad.
The front seat was comfortable but a little low to lean your head back. The dinette foam seemed OK. The queen bed does not fold when the slide is in which is a big plus. The bed is not too high, we think our dog could jump on it.
Tuesday, February 27, 2018
Tuesday, February 13, 2018
Rev Promaster chassis - driving
We test drove a used 2014 Trend today. It wasn't the twin floorplan but a 24RB.
The overhead skylight had a vibration noise that was annoying.
The Ram Chassis was pretty comfortable to drive. Seats were very comfortable. Left foot placement not bad for driving and decent room as a passenger. Seats did not recline so that was odd.
But we also went to a Dodge dealership and there are more adjustable seats available for the Ram chassis so we could always substitute them out.
Ram was a comfortable ride. A little noisy on acceleration but really very comfortable at coasting. A little squirrely on the expressway.
Very maneuverable in parking lots.
The seat belt was a bit annoying because it was attached to the seat so if you are tall it pulls down on your shoulder.
The seat adjustments were hard to adjust. But we could live with that.
----------------------
Following day test drove a 1996 Rev 23RB.
Oddly the passenger seat did not recline so very uncomfortable. Very manuevarable. Odd vibration in the steering wheel on the expressway. Had 38K miles so may have needed an alignment or something else.
Cabinets and body in good shape. Excessive breakdown of the vinyl on the back seats. Sofa very uncomfortable and not padded.
ccc 1000 lbs
The overhead skylight had a vibration noise that was annoying.
The Ram Chassis was pretty comfortable to drive. Seats were very comfortable. Left foot placement not bad for driving and decent room as a passenger. Seats did not recline so that was odd.
But we also went to a Dodge dealership and there are more adjustable seats available for the Ram chassis so we could always substitute them out.
Ram was a comfortable ride. A little noisy on acceleration but really very comfortable at coasting. A little squirrely on the expressway.
Very maneuverable in parking lots.
The seat belt was a bit annoying because it was attached to the seat so if you are tall it pulls down on your shoulder.
The seat adjustments were hard to adjust. But we could live with that.
----------------------
Following day test drove a 1996 Rev 23RB.
Oddly the passenger seat did not recline so very uncomfortable. Very manuevarable. Odd vibration in the steering wheel on the expressway. Had 38K miles so may have needed an alignment or something else.
Cabinets and body in good shape. Excessive breakdown of the vinyl on the back seats. Sofa very uncomfortable and not padded.
ccc 1000 lbs
Ram Promaster Chassis Winnebago Trend 23D and Dynamax Rev 24TB
There are 2 RVs that I'm interested in but can't see because they aren't local. They are both on the Ram Promaster Chassis. I wonder if the reason this isn't carried locally is because it might be under powered for the mountains?
CCC:
Trend about 1137 lbs (unit advertised in Texas) with a slide and Rev 989 lb without. Advantage - Trend.
Got these weights and measures from a Rev 24TB owner:
"The table top inserted between TB is 20" high and the mattress is 30". The width (depth) of the widest storage compartment is 29 1/2". The CCC on the door says 449 Kg (989 lbs). This is with the tanks empty. The fresh water full is 94 Kg (207 lbs) and the waste tanks full is 275 Kg (606) according to the sticker. With all tanks full you are getting close to CCC."
Twin bed floorplan:
The Winnebago Trend has our preferred floor plan of center aisle twins with a rear bath. We like this because in most models one bed can be extended to almost a full while still leaving an aisle. Makes sleeping with dogs that kick out and try to take over the bed easier. But in the Trend it does not extend like this. However we could mount one of the tables between the beds down near the feet and the dog could sleep between us there. But then that means we have to unmount it in the morning. Definitely a pain and not realistic with my bad back. But there is no advantage to the Rev in this area also because the beds there are also fixed and would need a table mounted between them to bridge the gap. Advantage - neither.
Size of loveseat:
The Rev loveseat is 58" so more sofa sized. Trend loveseat is 42" wide. Really love that it does not have a slide. But it does not have additional ccc over the Trend for not having the slide. But we still like not having a slide for the simplicity and additional noise and temp. insulation. Advantage - Rev.
Not having a slide:
REV!!! Hard to say if the Trend drivers chair will lean back properly with a slide behind it. This is something we have to check on. Also riding on the loveseat on a non-slide is likely to feel more sturdy and secure. Advantage - Rev.
Sink size:
Rev has a nice big rectangular sink. Last years model had a double bowl sink, nice size and rectangular. Advantage Rev and then further advantage Rev 2017 for double bowl.
Table deployed full time:
While the Rev allows this the table is oddly positioned. It is not centered on the loveseat but rather toward the front of the cab. I do not know if this cuts off access to the front seats. It looks like it might. The Trend does not allow this as the loveseat covers the table hole. Maybe one can be added in the desired spot to either unit? Advantage - neither but maybe to the Rev if you can still access the front seats around the deployed table.
Quality control:
This is one we can't judge because we can't see them. The Rev had the general manager on the Dynamax Forest River forum and he responds and answers questions. In my mind this is huge if you end up with a lemon or manufacturing mess. Winnebago has all the standardized diagrams, parts list etc that we are used to on our current Winnebago that make trouble shooting and fixing things ourselves easier. Advantage: Hard to say. Really didn't expect such good support from Dynamax manager so that has me tilting that way.
In the end ccc may win the day. Need to find an owner to get the info off the door or get a dealer to send photos of the label.
Key metrics:
Trend 23D - 24' 4", 29 fresh, 40 black 35 grey, ccc about 1137, bed size 32"x75" and 32"x80"
Rev 24TB - 24' 8", 25 fresh, 35 black, 38 grey, ccc about 989, bed size 32"x74"
In terms of how we use our current RV we fill the grey first from the shower but it is only 28G, then the black which includes kitchen is 28. The third tank with is the lavatory sink is 17G and we have never filled it but we do start washing dishes in that sink when the black tank is getting full. Our fresh water capacity is 55G but we find fresh water is easy to find more so than dump stations so the Rev and Trend tank sizes seem great to us.
Wish one of them allowed large item storage over the drivers area. We don't seem to have storage for lawn chairs and dog pen in either so would have to go with a hitch cargo carrier. The Thor Citation had the over cab area for storage but even less ccc at 920 lbs....
CCC:
Trend about 1137 lbs (unit advertised in Texas) with a slide and Rev 989 lb without. Advantage - Trend.
Got these weights and measures from a Rev 24TB owner:
"The table top inserted between TB is 20" high and the mattress is 30". The width (depth) of the widest storage compartment is 29 1/2". The CCC on the door says 449 Kg (989 lbs). This is with the tanks empty. The fresh water full is 94 Kg (207 lbs) and the waste tanks full is 275 Kg (606) according to the sticker. With all tanks full you are getting close to CCC."
Twin bed floorplan:
The Winnebago Trend has our preferred floor plan of center aisle twins with a rear bath. We like this because in most models one bed can be extended to almost a full while still leaving an aisle. Makes sleeping with dogs that kick out and try to take over the bed easier. But in the Trend it does not extend like this. However we could mount one of the tables between the beds down near the feet and the dog could sleep between us there. But then that means we have to unmount it in the morning. Definitely a pain and not realistic with my bad back. But there is no advantage to the Rev in this area also because the beds there are also fixed and would need a table mounted between them to bridge the gap. Advantage - neither.
Size of loveseat:
The Rev loveseat is 58" so more sofa sized. Trend loveseat is 42" wide. Really love that it does not have a slide. But it does not have additional ccc over the Trend for not having the slide. But we still like not having a slide for the simplicity and additional noise and temp. insulation. Advantage - Rev.
Not having a slide:
REV!!! Hard to say if the Trend drivers chair will lean back properly with a slide behind it. This is something we have to check on. Also riding on the loveseat on a non-slide is likely to feel more sturdy and secure. Advantage - Rev.
Sink size:
Rev has a nice big rectangular sink. Last years model had a double bowl sink, nice size and rectangular. Advantage Rev and then further advantage Rev 2017 for double bowl.
Table deployed full time:
While the Rev allows this the table is oddly positioned. It is not centered on the loveseat but rather toward the front of the cab. I do not know if this cuts off access to the front seats. It looks like it might. The Trend does not allow this as the loveseat covers the table hole. Maybe one can be added in the desired spot to either unit? Advantage - neither but maybe to the Rev if you can still access the front seats around the deployed table.
Quality control:
This is one we can't judge because we can't see them. The Rev had the general manager on the Dynamax Forest River forum and he responds and answers questions. In my mind this is huge if you end up with a lemon or manufacturing mess. Winnebago has all the standardized diagrams, parts list etc that we are used to on our current Winnebago that make trouble shooting and fixing things ourselves easier. Advantage: Hard to say. Really didn't expect such good support from Dynamax manager so that has me tilting that way.
In the end ccc may win the day. Need to find an owner to get the info off the door or get a dealer to send photos of the label.
Key metrics:
Trend 23D - 24' 4", 29 fresh, 40 black 35 grey, ccc about 1137, bed size 32"x75" and 32"x80"
Rev 24TB - 24' 8", 25 fresh, 35 black, 38 grey, ccc about 989, bed size 32"x74"
In terms of how we use our current RV we fill the grey first from the shower but it is only 28G, then the black which includes kitchen is 28. The third tank with is the lavatory sink is 17G and we have never filled it but we do start washing dishes in that sink when the black tank is getting full. Our fresh water capacity is 55G but we find fresh water is easy to find more so than dump stations so the Rev and Trend tank sizes seem great to us.
Wish one of them allowed large item storage over the drivers area. We don't seem to have storage for lawn chairs and dog pen in either so would have to go with a hitch cargo carrier. The Thor Citation had the over cab area for storage but even less ccc at 920 lbs....
Sunday, February 11, 2018
Thor Citation 24sv
After
a disappointing Thor Axis test drive we stumbled across the Thor
Citation 24SV. It was far from perfect. The Mercedes part was better,
seats were in the right place, and foot room was excellent. Stitching on
seats was such that the seams caused pain (sort of like the princess
and the pea) but that could likely be solved with a wool seat cover.
Parts of the Thor Citation were laying around, like the wood cabinet
front, exterior locks didn't work or doors were misaligned, part of air
conditioner plastic cover broken, fake leather was wearing along where
it hit when the slide was put in and out, main door needed realignment
and we weren't sure we wouldn't hit the dump valve handle and knock it
off when going up our driveway. We loved getting the bunk over the
drivers area for storage. Lawn chairs and dog pen have to go somewhere.
But then it all came crashing down when we read the 920 lb CCC with 300 lbs subtracted if you had a full water tank so 620lbs. There is 2x the fresh water in grey and black tanks so if you ever did fill your grey and blacks then you, all your gear and any left over fresh water in the tanks are supposed to weigh less than 320 lbs. Won't happen when we and our dog weigh more than that.
But then it all came crashing down when we read the 920 lb CCC with 300 lbs subtracted if you had a full water tank so 620lbs. There is 2x the fresh water in grey and black tanks so if you ever did fill your grey and blacks then you, all your gear and any left over fresh water in the tanks are supposed to weigh less than 320 lbs. Won't happen when we and our dog weigh more than that.
Sunday, February 4, 2018
Thor Axis 25.5
We looked at a Thor Axis 25.5.
It had an interesting feature on the twin beds. One slides out to meet the other. We think we would modify this to slide out part way to leave a small walkway to get to the bathroom but still have one bed be larger for the dogs. Unfortunately it was not a power slide like the Sunseeker twin bed. Overall the set up was much cheaper than the Sunseeker. But it could still work. We would have to remove all the bed foam as it was horribly uncomfortable and have custom latex foam mattresses made for the twin bed and the newly almost full bed. But I think it would end up being very comfortable and functional.
We did not like the table leg holders. Odd plastic pieces (guaranteed to get lost) had to be pried out of them every time you use them.
In the back closet where the tables were stored you could see daylight at the corner. Not very encouraging regarding the build quality.
The sofa was reasonably comfortable but on an annoying slide so it covered the table holes. We would want to put in more table mounts so the table could be up when on the road.
Shower was very roomy at 30x36. Annoying fabric curtain. Weird flip up shelf behind toilet. If you flip it up you can't use the toilet. So who would do that? Better to leave flip up off and allow toilet paper or other storage to be there.
Front passenger seat left foot room was cut off a little. Plenty of room for the seat to have been mounted further back. Not sure why they didn't do this other than trying to keep it even with the drivers seat and choosing chairs that don't slide very far back to save cost.
This may be a good compromise unit. Cost about $73K so not much value for the quality of components and workmanship.
Test drive results:
The steering wheel and the drivers seat were not properly lined up. Found the passenger seat left foot room was too restrictive for comfort. And the loveseat cushion bottomed out when going over minor bumps on the expressway.
ccc = 3011 lbs Big plus!
Edit: We saw another 25.5. Loved it more than before because we figured out we could just add more holes in the floor for better table placement. Three quality issues with this one. Generator ground strap was loose, snap for one of the door partitions was poorly positioned so couldn't snap and one of the cabinet handles was installed unevenly. We also noticed that we both hit our heads on the overhead bunk when entering or leaving the cab area.
It had an interesting feature on the twin beds. One slides out to meet the other. We think we would modify this to slide out part way to leave a small walkway to get to the bathroom but still have one bed be larger for the dogs. Unfortunately it was not a power slide like the Sunseeker twin bed. Overall the set up was much cheaper than the Sunseeker. But it could still work. We would have to remove all the bed foam as it was horribly uncomfortable and have custom latex foam mattresses made for the twin bed and the newly almost full bed. But I think it would end up being very comfortable and functional.
We did not like the table leg holders. Odd plastic pieces (guaranteed to get lost) had to be pried out of them every time you use them.
In the back closet where the tables were stored you could see daylight at the corner. Not very encouraging regarding the build quality.
The sofa was reasonably comfortable but on an annoying slide so it covered the table holes. We would want to put in more table mounts so the table could be up when on the road.
Shower was very roomy at 30x36. Annoying fabric curtain. Weird flip up shelf behind toilet. If you flip it up you can't use the toilet. So who would do that? Better to leave flip up off and allow toilet paper or other storage to be there.
Front passenger seat left foot room was cut off a little. Plenty of room for the seat to have been mounted further back. Not sure why they didn't do this other than trying to keep it even with the drivers seat and choosing chairs that don't slide very far back to save cost.
This may be a good compromise unit. Cost about $73K so not much value for the quality of components and workmanship.
Test drive results:
The steering wheel and the drivers seat were not properly lined up. Found the passenger seat left foot room was too restrictive for comfort. And the loveseat cushion bottomed out when going over minor bumps on the expressway.
ccc = 3011 lbs Big plus!
Edit: We saw another 25.5. Loved it more than before because we figured out we could just add more holes in the floor for better table placement. Three quality issues with this one. Generator ground strap was loose, snap for one of the door partitions was poorly positioned so couldn't snap and one of the cabinet handles was installed unevenly. We also noticed that we both hit our heads on the overhead bunk when entering or leaving the cab area.
Test drives of FR3 30DS and Ace 29.4
I really don't want a large RV but my husband wants the captains chairs for driving comfort so we selected a couple of the 30ish feet class As to drive. They felt soooo luxurious compared to the small Ford Transits we were looking at. Interior fit and finish was loads better. So many more amenities and not really that much more in cost.
Ace 29.4
Drove pretty well. Loved the floor plan and the passenger seating position.Very comfortable to lay on the sofa going down the road or the full time king size bed. Did not like the giant bus sized steering wheel but would probably get used to it. If we go for this class and size RV this seems to be the one to get. Great room to access the wardrobe with the slide out. Cost about $89K.
FR3 30DS
Drove really squirrelly. I thought it was just over inflated tires but in checking out the forums afterwards it seems it really does drive terrible and people put in $5K in suspension modifications to get it to drive well. Loved the extra large LP fridge. You could sit in the dinette with your seatbelt on and make a meal right out of the fridge when going down the road. But the sofa was on the slide and had a horrible vibration to it such that you would not want to ride on the sofa going down the road. When reclining the passenger chair you quickly run into the handle on the entry door. Constant rubbing noise with the vinyl seats against the handle could probably be overcome with a piece of fabric in between. But it did impede the positioning of the chair for best comfort and in some positions ran into your right shoulder. Loved the full time king bed but even with the slide out not much room to access the wardrobe. Due to the large slide very low storage in the kitchen area but we think the extra large refrigerator could take up alot of the slack because you could put things in there that would normally go in a cabinet. There is an option for a regular size LP fridge but we did not see that. Cost about $82K.
Probably should relook at the Fleetwood Flair 30U as it also has a full time king bed.
Ace 29.4
Drove pretty well. Loved the floor plan and the passenger seating position.Very comfortable to lay on the sofa going down the road or the full time king size bed. Did not like the giant bus sized steering wheel but would probably get used to it. If we go for this class and size RV this seems to be the one to get. Great room to access the wardrobe with the slide out. Cost about $89K.
FR3 30DS
Drove really squirrelly. I thought it was just over inflated tires but in checking out the forums afterwards it seems it really does drive terrible and people put in $5K in suspension modifications to get it to drive well. Loved the extra large LP fridge. You could sit in the dinette with your seatbelt on and make a meal right out of the fridge when going down the road. But the sofa was on the slide and had a horrible vibration to it such that you would not want to ride on the sofa going down the road. When reclining the passenger chair you quickly run into the handle on the entry door. Constant rubbing noise with the vinyl seats against the handle could probably be overcome with a piece of fabric in between. But it did impede the positioning of the chair for best comfort and in some positions ran into your right shoulder. Loved the full time king bed but even with the slide out not much room to access the wardrobe. Due to the large slide very low storage in the kitchen area but we think the extra large refrigerator could take up alot of the slack because you could put things in there that would normally go in a cabinet. There is an option for a regular size LP fridge but we did not see that. Cost about $82K.
Probably should relook at the Fleetwood Flair 30U as it also has a full time king bed.
Comparison of Ford Transit with test drive (Orion - gas and Sunseeker - diesel)
We've test driven the Ford Transit 3 times now. Here are my impressions
Coachmen Orion T21RS
Very nicely laid out coach. The step near the microwave was problematic for me. When I opened and closed the microwave door I kept tripping over it. The over the cab bunk provided terrific storage for our lawn chairs and dog pen. Neither of us liked driving it. I could not get a comfortable position with the left foot cut off by a hump and the geometry of the steering wheel, pedals and seat. My husband felt the seat was too hard. But I wanted to give it another try with the twin bed floor plan so we went to see it. Cost about $60K.
Coachmen Orion T21TB
I have to say this is the best floor plan we have seen for us. We absolutely loved the no slides. The fact you could sit in the love seat, have your seat belt on and still open the refrigerator to make yourself a meal with the table set up in front of you. The shower had the curved hard plastic shower curtain which we prefer. The interior storage was fantastic. It also had the over cab bunk to accommodate large items. But the quality was so bad the coach was falling apart under our hands while we looked at it. The trim fell off, the drawer glides were so weak that the empty drawers fell through them as they bent outwards when you opened them. The upper cabinets had no way to stay open or closed when you worked with them. The cheap brown particle board cabinets and brown vinyl were '70s ugly. Although I must say the foam on the loveseat was the best we've seen in this class. I can't remember if I liked the bed foam. I worked a little harder at the driver seating position and got it to be more tolerable. But I don't drive that often, my husband does. I found the loveseat in back was my preferred seating position over the passenger seat but the passenger seat was tolerable even with the left foot room a little cut off. Cost about $60K.
So with the obvious quality issues at the forefront of our minds we remembered the Sunseeker 2390 had much higher quality so we decided to look at the 2370 with a similar floor plan to the Orion T21tb.
Sunseeker 2370
Everything about the 2370 was much nicer than the Orion. The window shades are fantastic. It came with the overhead fans. The cabinets stay open and stay closed. Nothing fell off when we handled it. The real bonus was the twin beds were power operated to come together. We found if we moved one in to make it bigger there was still enough of an aisle to get to the bathroom and one bed became closer to full size. This is nice when you have dogs that want to sleep with you and like to kick out to try and take over the bed at night. We did not like the loveseat slide. It made the loveseat very small and uncomfortable. The foam on it was bad. It reduced the storage above the loveseat and refrigerator significantly. And you wouldn't be able to have the table up when traveling. Also the door to the refrigerator opened the opposite direction so no longer able to open the fridge when seated on the loveseat. The problem was no place to put folding lawn chairs and our dog pen. But we decided we could figure out a way to carry them on a hitch so went for the test drive.
Unfortunately they only had the diesel version. It was loud and vibrated the cab. The two previous Ford Transits we test drove were the gas versions and they were quieter and smoother. We also both found the drivers seat very uncomfortable while the passengers was softer and more padded. I think there was something wrong with the drivers seat foam. It may have been installed incorrectly or damaged because it was much less comfortable than the others we tried. Cost about $65K.
Coachmen Orion T21RS
Very nicely laid out coach. The step near the microwave was problematic for me. When I opened and closed the microwave door I kept tripping over it. The over the cab bunk provided terrific storage for our lawn chairs and dog pen. Neither of us liked driving it. I could not get a comfortable position with the left foot cut off by a hump and the geometry of the steering wheel, pedals and seat. My husband felt the seat was too hard. But I wanted to give it another try with the twin bed floor plan so we went to see it. Cost about $60K.
Coachmen Orion T21TB
I have to say this is the best floor plan we have seen for us. We absolutely loved the no slides. The fact you could sit in the love seat, have your seat belt on and still open the refrigerator to make yourself a meal with the table set up in front of you. The shower had the curved hard plastic shower curtain which we prefer. The interior storage was fantastic. It also had the over cab bunk to accommodate large items. But the quality was so bad the coach was falling apart under our hands while we looked at it. The trim fell off, the drawer glides were so weak that the empty drawers fell through them as they bent outwards when you opened them. The upper cabinets had no way to stay open or closed when you worked with them. The cheap brown particle board cabinets and brown vinyl were '70s ugly. Although I must say the foam on the loveseat was the best we've seen in this class. I can't remember if I liked the bed foam. I worked a little harder at the driver seating position and got it to be more tolerable. But I don't drive that often, my husband does. I found the loveseat in back was my preferred seating position over the passenger seat but the passenger seat was tolerable even with the left foot room a little cut off. Cost about $60K.
So with the obvious quality issues at the forefront of our minds we remembered the Sunseeker 2390 had much higher quality so we decided to look at the 2370 with a similar floor plan to the Orion T21tb.
Sunseeker 2370
Everything about the 2370 was much nicer than the Orion. The window shades are fantastic. It came with the overhead fans. The cabinets stay open and stay closed. Nothing fell off when we handled it. The real bonus was the twin beds were power operated to come together. We found if we moved one in to make it bigger there was still enough of an aisle to get to the bathroom and one bed became closer to full size. This is nice when you have dogs that want to sleep with you and like to kick out to try and take over the bed at night. We did not like the loveseat slide. It made the loveseat very small and uncomfortable. The foam on it was bad. It reduced the storage above the loveseat and refrigerator significantly. And you wouldn't be able to have the table up when traveling. Also the door to the refrigerator opened the opposite direction so no longer able to open the fridge when seated on the loveseat. The problem was no place to put folding lawn chairs and our dog pen. But we decided we could figure out a way to carry them on a hitch so went for the test drive.
Unfortunately they only had the diesel version. It was loud and vibrated the cab. The two previous Ford Transits we test drove were the gas versions and they were quieter and smoother. We also both found the drivers seat very uncomfortable while the passengers was softer and more padded. I think there was something wrong with the drivers seat foam. It may have been installed incorrectly or damaged because it was much less comfortable than the others we tried. Cost about $65K.
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